Our interview will mix questions and comments. First, how did you get closer to the theme of internationalization of Education?

First, thank you so much for inviting me to this interview. I was touched because, as you know, the researcher often works alone. Nowadays, I work a lot with a team, and I’m sure our team’s production surpasses the one in isolation. It is a back-and-forth process between isolation and teamwork. The synthesis of the thought - and the responsibility we have, let’s say, with the production of knowledge - is built among us, much about the interrelation in groups, the formative and familiar baggage, the class we belong, summing up, the cultural capital and geo-economic relations that interfere in the inhabited territory. Apart from this, the pandemic has also placed us in physical isolation, but we could overcome geographical barriers with digital communication. However, it was not the same as we are experiencing now: an in-person interview. Well, so, I thank you.

How was my approximation of an object I’ve studied for over 35 years? I graduated in Social Sciences. I’m a sociologist, and the sociologist sees the world in a broader sense. We see the world from a world-system perspective, a global, national, regional, and institutional relationship. So, even in the educational area, I’ve always seen the problems and issues from this world-system perspective.

Something else that strengthened my entry into internationalization: I’m a professor at the

Instituto de Filosofia e Ciências Humanas of the Universidade Federal do Rio Grande do Sul, I’m retired, which reinforced this perspective of seeing the educational issue in Brazil, ultimately, within a world-system perspective. Though I’m a professor at the Instituto de Filosofia, I’ve always turned to the educational perspective. I taught at the Faculdade de Educação for a long time, always within this perspective of thinking about education in its broader relationship. This was my approximation. I can say- this is a career issue-you start guiding yourself in this perspective and thinking about it. Thinking a bit beyond, still in UFRGS, I started working with the issue of Mercosul, always focusing on Latin America but not losing sight of the fact that it is in a global context - and that Brazil is also in Latin America.

What are the main theoreticians that influenced and ground our trajectory in the study field of internationalization?

As previously said, the internationalization theme was formalized in the late 1980s, still in UFRGS. I started to research Mercosul, which was the moment in which the governmental system, Latin America, mainly - at first, four countries in the South of Latin America started to think together: why can’t we make a circulation of diplomas? I’ll come back to this later, but the issue is that if we want to think about the internationalization process, I have to go to the theoreticians. It has always been a theme discussed in the global North, in the so-called developed countries, I’m basically referring to the United States and the old Europe, let’s say. But much was thought about mobility because, when we look to the United States, they survive through mobility. The classes, for instance, are dominated by the Chinese, and Asians. And, in the perspective of Portugal and Spain, there is a significant presence of Latin Americans and Africans, at first. So, my theoreticians emerged from this. There was another particular question: who discussed internationalization in this global North were not those in the School of Education. They were mostly managers in the area, who could be in International Relations, but many more managers in the university institutions. That was the debate. And I fed myself from it. This was also one of the things that opened my eyes to the internationalization process from another perspective when I was doing my Ph.D. There were strong Higher Education associations, which did not exist in Brazil yet. In Brazil, we have ANPEd and, in it, the Work Groups in Higher Education. Still, at least not with strong visibility, there isn’t an association that thinks only about Higher Education and has recognition and success. There is no such thing; it is always under formation. Even our group [Rede Sulbrasileira de Investigadores da Educação Superior], which has existed since 1999, was not strong enough to create an association. Nowadays, Professor Malu [Maria Lucia Almeida], together with the group from Unicamp, is one of the people editing a Higher Education journal.

Initially, my first theoreticians were from Latin America. When I started to work with Mercosul and Latin America, Quijano² was maybe one of the most powerful ones to think about this perspective we defend. At that time, the global South was not studied because the work was with developed countries, underdeveloped countries, and firstand third-world countries. This dichotomy highlights this conception.

So, I started in Mercosul, focusing on Latin America, where Quijano was the most powerful. Then I learned about the huge extension of production on internationalization because here, in Latin America, I was thinking about internationalization in education in an isolated way. At Faculdade de Educação, I was isolated, thinking about internationalization. The themes were closely connected to K-12 education: teaching methodologies and, after, learning. So, the first question was Latin America.

When I joined the doctorate, I started thinking and going to Higher Education congresses; I started thinking there were other people, other realities, which are not the same as the Latin American one. There is the reality of thinking of internationalization as mobility, so if we go to Latin America in person or virtually, this would be the main way of thinking about internationalization.

Then, I obviously turned to Jane Knight³’s concept, which now circulates even more. Her idea is fundamental as she already works with the issue of bringing [internationalization] to the institution, to really bring to the institution an intercultural characteristic not only international. I think that, in Brazil, the issue of interculturality is not yet well discussed, at least not from the perspective of the internationalization of education.

In this sense, Jane Knight strongly influenced your thought.

Yes, it is the question of dominant network in terms of internationalization. At first, the ideas of Knight and those connected to the Center for International Higher Education of Boston College were not for Latin-America. Mobility is prevalent as a type of internationalization. Here, the in-mobility, which is to attract students, stands out. Because the reality where this thought is produced is different from ours. In Brazil, the out-mobility prevails, that is, leaving the country to seek foreign outside countries. Regarding the in, we have minimal attraction capacity. If we look at the data, it is not even 1% of all the circulation of international students worldwide. So, what is 1% to us considering more than 8 million people enrolled in Higher Education? Nothing. The attraction is even lower.

Then, we have to think of other forms of internationalization. I fight for this, and now it is no longer just my perspective, let’s say, first thinking about Latin America, and later the issue of the global North. In the 1980s- I, at the time, had already worked in the global North-I held a seminar here with Portuguese-speaking countries. What do you I mean by that? I thought about Latin America, about Brazil, the global South. With the support of Capes and CNPq, I brought here a seminar to which representatives of all countries came, from East Timor, Mozambique, and Portugal, all Portuguese-speaking countries, so we could meet each other and discuss possible strategies for the global South. However, I could not continue this relationship.

We might consider that this interculturality issue is a tendency in current studies. The challenge seems to be thinking about this coexistence and seeking dialogue.

I agree. In the concept of internationalization,⁴ I aim to bring an international and intercultural perspective based on what? Based on collaborative networks.

I believe that these collaborative networks are with the global North, or countries with significant knowledge production, as well as with other territories that represent us in terms of language, time, and culture. That is, there is a complementarity. To me, the issue is the world. And what for? To transform, let’s say, the institution, the country, or the groups so they can disseminate this knowledge, this type of critical respect toward different cultures.

This is my conception. What do I mean by that? I’m not orthodox; my world experience, my studies in Sociology, and my desire to know and respect this world make me think this way. We have critical thoughts with projects that consider these decolonial issues, or decoloniality, and I fully recognize them. I also acknowledge that we have to think clearly about our place in relation to other sectors and cultures so that we are not isolated, thinking about an isolated Latin America.

Considering the importance of thought plurality, to what do you attribute the low circulation of articles about the internationalization of African and South American education?

If we use the Web of Science as a parameter, there is no circulation. Why? What is the type of communication, the language? English. It is also not just simply taking a journal and making an English version. No. They have a different article structure. I learned this with practice. In Brazil, we have an item called “analysis of results,” in which we usually write the data, and another one called “discussion of results.” That is one of the questions. And we do have a production! What don’t we have? The international circulation of production.

The Web of Science production is basically concentrated in the United States, Europe, and China. China is one of the most productive countries.

So, we have here that old discussion: I’ll produce it in Portuguese, and only our colleagues will read it. But, today, there is a search for the global South, for this discussion on globalization, regionalism, etc. And those of the global North are avid to know what we’re producing. I recently participated in a class in Ohio, and the most significant discussion was: where are things being produced, what is produced, and what do you think? They talk a lot about the global South, but the problem is the language, and we have to discuss: do we want to dialogue amongst ourselves? I can tell you something, I produce in Brazil, in Latin America. Still, I also publish in those prominent journals of Higher Education because this made us known - [what is the] pedagogy for internationalization in Latin America?

Would you attribute the low circulation of articles about the internationalization of the education of Africans and South Americans to the language?

One of the issues is circulation. The other, maybe it is something to do with our way, and I was also struck by this: we think “what’s produced in the North is better,” “what’s produced in Africa is not the best,” “I won’t waste time reading this.” I have actually thought like this: I looked forward to this production from the North much more than to the production, let’s say, from Asia or Africa. I’ve already advised African students, and the richness is immense. It is a marvelous.

So, at first, it is an issue of circulation, the question of language, the way of analyzing data and writing the article. It’s more than the language because we can beat these barriers. In fact, nowadays, we have excellent translators and quite good translation platforms. But it is much more a matter of valuation. I wrote an article (Revista do CRUB) a while ago: why do we read about the United States and Europe but not about Latin America? We still have our backs to Latin America. Why? Because we value what is produced in the North much more than in the South. That is the main reason.

How do you perceive the pandemic issue and its impact on the political experiences of internationalization in education and its repercussions in academic production?

For the production, it was very, very good. Let’s unveil the veils. The theses and dissertations stopped at that moment, I mean, they were being constructed but not handed. The production of theses and dissertations decreased. I’ll explain: I work with a methodology of state of knowledge, and teach a subject that analyzes the IBICT [Instituto Brasileiro de Informação em Ciência e Tecnologia] database, and we did this survey. Why did they decrease? In terms of theses and dissertations, Capes extended the conclusion date for graduate programs by more than a year; that is, the defense of theses and/or dissertations could be extended by more than a year.

Now, the increase in the number of articles about internationalization was immense. We’re probably feeling this. For example, what reaches the Research Gate; every day I see that “So and So wrote this”. Many people research internationalization in Brazil, actually. So, in that way, it was quite positive.

Another positive point regarding internationalization was learning how to work in the cloud. What do I mean by that? This made us realize -even with our advisees- that it’s possible to watch a class in Madrid, in Argentina, in Santa Maria, in Bahia, you know? We can watch them if the classes are remote, or, as they say, hybrid. The live events were phenomenal, and the establishment of networks was wonderful.

Well, so what now? What do I see now? It’s hard to come back to the in-person format. Of course, socioemotionally, the impact of the pandemic was very hard. Cognitively, it was marvelous, but emotionally, it was very bad. The return has been challenging. My subject is online because I work with students from different countries. In fact, I study internationalization, so I can’t be closed to the in-person format. If I work with the notion of networks, what do I see? I think we won’t leave the cloud.

In this sense, what is the role of networks in the internationalization process?

In my perspective, there are two large groups. One sees higher education as a public good, and the other as a service guided by international trade organizations. In this field, there are several possibilities for internationalization.

Considering the weaving of collaborative networks, this is phenomenal. Of course, nobody does it without any interest: this is a utopia. However, if I look into this issue, to reach internationalization, one way is to allow the creation of collaborative networks. Their benefits go beyond the research; they also reach the teachers’ education and the whole undergraduate degrees. In Latin America, this field focuses on thinking of education as a public good, free of charge. If I don’t have any State support, this will certainly limit my study, my teaching, and my public access. If I go to the other side, to the other extreme of the international scientific field, if I consider Higher Education as a good, as a service, I’ll have more students, for instance, with an excellent level, but paying students. I reckon this is the balance: thinking about intercultural education and internationalization, which respects the other with critical respect, thinking about collaborative possibilities but also thinking on the way of “how do I do that?” The existing models point toward extremely competitive countries that survive out of these services, let’s say. How do I do that in Brazil? First, I don’t have an internationalization policy for the system in Brazil. Capes is enacting some policies, but there aren’t [policies] for K-12 education, nor Higher Education as a whole.

Due to its importance, there is a whole movement nowadays thinking about doing this, because internationalization is seen as quality. So, how will I make this quality, so that it can enter the system?

It is quite common to think of quality as the increase in English study load, however, it is not simply to teach a bit more than ‘the book is on the table’. It’s related to using the language to know the culture. I understand this way of knowing the culture of respecting others at any level, whether in K-12 Education or in Higher Education.

It is much more than bilingualism.

Way more, especially if bilingualism is considered the increase in English study load. My position is to disseminate that internationalization is towards education as a whole, since childhood education. The education system cannot separate K-12 and higher. If cut out on K-12, the individual will not even consider accessing higher education.

So, continuing this question and broadening it further. We are living in a multi-polarized world. What are the main challenges in the internationalization processes of Education?

Science and technology are not doing well in Brazil. The cuts in all sectors have been striking and limiting. In my time, we did the PhD freely. Now we see... you probably also have the experience of having a student-worker in the doctorate. It’s different when the student has a PhD scholarship. That’s key. If we don’t have the support for science and technology, we’ll continue to do internationalization; however, even at the Ph.D. level, our formation is very restricted. As I’ve told you, our experience during this pandemic was excellent, as it allowed our students to be at another university. Sure, one thing is to watch a class at the University of Madrid through the Internet; another is to be on the campus, with all internationalization has to offer.

To me, internationalization is a way; it is not the university’s role. It’s a way that will run through all the other institutional roles. What does it give you? Having contact with different cultures. I’m not simply talking about the culture of other countries, but the issue of interculturality at home, at home, in my classroom, the respect for another culture. Besides the cognitive and the socioemotional, internationalization gives us a formation to the world, you know? I rely on this formation. Maybe I’m a bit utopic. I believe on this, so the world can improve. As I know another culture, be it related to ethnicity, gender, race, or diversity, when I interact, understand, and respect the other, the world improves. We have common universal principles of respect toward others, inclusion, and equity. Internationalization brings us all that. At least the internationalization I defend.

How do we consider the relationship between formation and outreach curricularization in the dialogical perspective of exchange and respect toward internationalization?

The outreach curricularization gives us enormous richness, as it brings the community to the university. This other gaze is one of respect because it starts from another principle. There are many forms of internationalization. The integral one refers to the institution as a whole. The other is the transborder - mobility, in-person or virtual. In Brazil, it is limited; in Latin America, there are other attempts but not much funding. There is the Internationalization of the Curriculum (IoC), the Internationalization at Home (IaH), and so on.

I focus on the Internationalization at Home (IaH), complemented by the other types of internationalization. But why? I believe it has great opportunities to potentialize internationalization during the formation. In Latin America, with significant economic needs, it is a possibility for many people to access internationalization. The curriculum is the core of the formation process. I focus on the formal curriculum to internationalize. The informal curriculum will heavily depend on the students’ cultural capital, their families, where they live, and their possibilities. Not the formal one; this one is for everyone. Through the formal curriculum, we can offer internationalization, maybe not to all, but at home.

In the context of internationalization, what is the importance of Higher Education Institutions’ (HEI) internal bodies for a cooperation policy, for exchanges, and intercultural dialogues between Brazilians and foreigners?

Well, first, most academics don’t know what is internationalization. Or better said, they think internationalization is mobility, but this is not internationalization; it is a type of internationalization. So, what does one need? There cannot be an Internationalization Office outside the bases or within the Research Office, in isolation. When they think about internationalization, they think about research, where there is funding, the Capes providing grants, etc. This is not enough to internationalize na HEI. We need internationalization in all Schools and degrees. We need to have this discussion, to have a project and, obviously, an internationalization plan in the institution, which transforms itself into an institutional policy. This is important. My research group studied the 36 institutional plans selected by Capes-Print. The greatest majority was done quickly, just to answer the call. However, we have more than two thousand HEIs in Brazil. In this context, the first thing to do is to raise a discussion within the institution itself: “What is internationalization, and what are the objectives of my HEI?” There are some successful examples. I can point out an international project developed in Newcastle called The Approaches and Tools for Internationalisation at Home (ATIAH) Erasmus+ project (2016-2018).⁵ First, to have a plan, capable management at all levels, and know that internationalization is interculturality. Respect for others and their culture is fundamental. Professors’ training as well, and so on.

Therefore, internationalization must be transversal.

It cannot be hidden in an office. It cannot be focused on the number of agreements, as most times. The agreements should be alive, vibrant, and constant.

We are reaching the end of the interview and’d like to ask a question about the rear mirror. We are not here by chance but because we recognize your long and productive trajectory, as you are considered a reference in the study field. Your writings are noteworthy and will certainly be cited by almost all articles in this dossier. How do you evaluate your trajectory and this recognition of the academic community?

I can probably say this. As a teacher and researcher, I can say it’s a lot of work, a lot. I could be retired, again. But I make a point of saying: I love what I do, I think what I do is relevant, I have a wonderful research team, I formed around 25 PhDs, and this shows a pathway. I have a responsibility toward this entire trajectory, mainly constructing a concept of internationalization. This concept is not isolated to a specific sector or a country, but to think of a type of internationalization able to build a better world. Besides all the development in scientific production, there is the collaborative work in networks, the formation of citizens, of better people. More and more, I consider this something essential to life.

What do you think about this Dossier on Education and Internationalization?

It is an important Brazilian production about internationalization and gives visibility to research, studies, and essays developed worldwide. We will learn with this dossier. We believe that the internationalization of Higher Education is an essential means not only for work qualification but also for the formation of a complete citizen. Brazil has one of the highest GDPs, it is among the largest land areas, among the greatest holders of wonderful natural richness, but it is also among those with highest exclusion rates, with the greatest income difference between social classes. So we ask: “Why is that? We have richness, we have GDP, a continent in our hands. What happens?” The issue is investing in education, forming all layers with this thought of a university in the world. It is Brazil in the world. But the world - and then I resume the dossier’s question, we should think of a dossier that reflects what we are doing in terms of internationalization. What is the internationalization concept for Latin America and Brazil, a mighty but extremely stratified country? What are some successful internationalization experiences and other practices in the world? I wholeheartedly back this dossier in this discussion.

What message would you give to new researchers and those interested in studying education internationalization?

Well, I dedicated my life to studying internationalization and will continue to do so. Currently, I have master’s, Ph.D., and post-docs, everyone studying internationalization and seeking ways to think about how Brazil can advance with high-quality internationalization. It is an internationalization beyond mobility. I am sure - complementary internationalization of different types, mobility, curriculum internationalization, domestic internationalization, and the search for full internationalization. In this perspective, we can contribute to internationalization studies for socioeconomic development. We can improve this country and the world with science and scientific studies.